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mithenMekare asked me to talk a little bit about Théoden and Denethor in Clarity of Purpose!
Here's where I confess that part of why the series jumps forward is that I REALLY wanted to write young versions of Théoden and Denethor. Obviously they never interact in canon, but I've always been fascinated by the implied relationship between these two rulers--for surely they had one! They're such different people I can't imagine they'd get along easily--yet in the books (not so in the movies) Denethor himself commands the beacons to be lit to summon the Rohirrim, and part of his final despair is his belief that Théoden has not come to help.
I always liked Denethor in the books--he was harsh and stern, yes, but Pippin seems to honestly respect him rather than hold him in contempt as movie-Pippin does. Even Gandalf says that he's more like Faramir than Boromir: "He is not like other men of this time, Pippin. . . By some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him, as it does in his other son, Faramir, but did not in Boromir, who he loved best." He's fought a long, cruel, seemingly hopeless battle against Mordor for decades. He's grown old defending Minas Tirith, taking back and losing again and again the ruined city of Osgiliath--so many lives lost over and over for a desolate land where nothing grows any longer, but which cannot be allowed to fall into enemy hands for strategic reasons. He's lost his wife, his elder son, the heart of his younger son, and all the while Sauron whispers despair to him. He gives in and in that he is less than Théoden, but we only see him at his point of snapping, not the decades of exhausting warfare that brought him there. I really wanted to save him--and by implication save Finduilas, Boromir, and Faramir--so I stepped into the past to do so.
Théoden’s story remains more unchanged, and I feel like a young Théoden would be a great deal like the rejuvenated king we see at the end of Return of the King, so he was easier to extrapolate backwards. Denethor was tougher! I had to guess at certain things--like, how did it feel to have your father trust and admire a man who you strongly suspect plans to take the throne back from him? And what would that mean to you? If, for example, Denethor were recently betrothed to (and deeply in love with) the Princess of Dol Amroth, and the true high king returned--he would lose so much of his status and political power in one stroke. Would the king of Dol Amroth still support a union with him? Would he find himself without a home, without a future, with his love wedded to Aragorn or Théoden or some other lord? I imagine Denethor knows these are selfish thoughts and is ashamed of them, but he’s never had a great deal of self-confidence (that, combined with pride--a terrible combination--is what Sauron preyed on), and I think they would haunt him. That’s why he’s so convinced in Clarity of Purpose that Estel secretly covets the Ring--because he can’t bear to think that the true king actually deserves to have his post back.
I’ve actually already written two Appendices dealing with Denethor: The Tale of Finduilas and Denethor and The Lives of Denethor and Théoden. The former tells the story of how Finduilas and Denethor meet and marry, and how their life unfolds after the series is over. The latter tells the story of Théoden and Denethor’s first meeting when Théoden is 12 and Denethor is 30 (spoiler: it doesn’t go well!) and what happens to the Prince of Rohan and the Steward’s Son after the series is over. And because you were patient and kind and read my crazy thoughts about Denethor II, most disliked character in Tolkien (beyond Alfrid), I will “reward” you with two clips from said Appendices!
From “The Tale of Finduilas and Denethor,” in which Denethor has reluctantly traveled to Dol Amroth to ask for the hand of Princess Finduilas, whom he has never met:
As his companions and retinue stabled their horses and prepared to enter the castle and meet the royal family, Denethor found himself suddenly sick at heart and unable to bear the walls around him. He slipped away and wandered he knew not where along the cliffs of Dol Amroth, his thoughts in turmoil, and the sea-birds circled around him and looked at him curiously.
It was then he saw a figure clinging to the cliffs: a slight woman in green and brown, her dark hair bound loosely behind her, scrambling for a foothold. Without thinking, he swung down the dizzying cliffs to drag her back to safety.
Yet to his surprise, the maiden showed him no gratitude. "Villain!" she cried, stamping one booted foot, "You have startled the petrels, and caused me to lose my sketchbook as well!"
"A thousand apologies," he said, bowing low, "But you seemed to me in peril."
"All my work is lost," she stormed at him, unmollified, and he noticed her eyes were the dark gray of a tempest-torn sea.
"Forgive me," he said. "I am..." But he found the usual recitation of titles and rank held no allure for him in front of this slim brown maid, and he finished simply, "My name is Denethor."
It seemed to him she startled at his words, but then she smiled. "You may call me Faelivrin," she said.
From “The Lives of Denethor and Théoden,” in which 12-year-old Théoden is a page riding with his uncle’s warband, patrolling the borders of Rohan:
Then one day his band was patrolling near the border of Gondor, and they came across a war-band of men from Minas Tirith. Now, relations between the two nations at this time were cordial but not overly warm, and so the Rohirrim approached the Gondorians with respect but not with love. And because he had spent his early years in Gondor and his speech was the least accented, they sent Théoden to parley.
A man dismounted from a black stallion to meet with Théoden between their two bands, dressed in light armor, black with a white tree blazoned upon it. He was clear of eye and fair of face, a man full-grown unlike Théoden, but beardless, and slender rather than strong-thewed, and Théoden secretly felt he seemed not as manly as the Rohirrim. But he dismounted as well and hailed him, saying, "Well met, man of Gondor! I ask to speak to your leader."
"You speak with him now," the man said coldly.
But Théoden burst then into laughter. "Nay, you jest," he said, pointing to the black stallion. "For surely no lord of Minas Tirith would ride such a spavined nag as that!"
Then Denethor--for it was he indeed--was stung to the quick, for he was proud of the stallion he had chosen himself to be his mount. "How dare you speak so to the son of the Steward of Gondor!" he said in a rage.
*facepalms for both of them*
Here's where I confess that part of why the series jumps forward is that I REALLY wanted to write young versions of Théoden and Denethor. Obviously they never interact in canon, but I've always been fascinated by the implied relationship between these two rulers--for surely they had one! They're such different people I can't imagine they'd get along easily--yet in the books (not so in the movies) Denethor himself commands the beacons to be lit to summon the Rohirrim, and part of his final despair is his belief that Théoden has not come to help.
I always liked Denethor in the books--he was harsh and stern, yes, but Pippin seems to honestly respect him rather than hold him in contempt as movie-Pippin does. Even Gandalf says that he's more like Faramir than Boromir: "He is not like other men of this time, Pippin. . . By some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him, as it does in his other son, Faramir, but did not in Boromir, who he loved best." He's fought a long, cruel, seemingly hopeless battle against Mordor for decades. He's grown old defending Minas Tirith, taking back and losing again and again the ruined city of Osgiliath--so many lives lost over and over for a desolate land where nothing grows any longer, but which cannot be allowed to fall into enemy hands for strategic reasons. He's lost his wife, his elder son, the heart of his younger son, and all the while Sauron whispers despair to him. He gives in and in that he is less than Théoden, but we only see him at his point of snapping, not the decades of exhausting warfare that brought him there. I really wanted to save him--and by implication save Finduilas, Boromir, and Faramir--so I stepped into the past to do so.
Théoden’s story remains more unchanged, and I feel like a young Théoden would be a great deal like the rejuvenated king we see at the end of Return of the King, so he was easier to extrapolate backwards. Denethor was tougher! I had to guess at certain things--like, how did it feel to have your father trust and admire a man who you strongly suspect plans to take the throne back from him? And what would that mean to you? If, for example, Denethor were recently betrothed to (and deeply in love with) the Princess of Dol Amroth, and the true high king returned--he would lose so much of his status and political power in one stroke. Would the king of Dol Amroth still support a union with him? Would he find himself without a home, without a future, with his love wedded to Aragorn or Théoden or some other lord? I imagine Denethor knows these are selfish thoughts and is ashamed of them, but he’s never had a great deal of self-confidence (that, combined with pride--a terrible combination--is what Sauron preyed on), and I think they would haunt him. That’s why he’s so convinced in Clarity of Purpose that Estel secretly covets the Ring--because he can’t bear to think that the true king actually deserves to have his post back.
I’ve actually already written two Appendices dealing with Denethor: The Tale of Finduilas and Denethor and The Lives of Denethor and Théoden. The former tells the story of how Finduilas and Denethor meet and marry, and how their life unfolds after the series is over. The latter tells the story of Théoden and Denethor’s first meeting when Théoden is 12 and Denethor is 30 (spoiler: it doesn’t go well!) and what happens to the Prince of Rohan and the Steward’s Son after the series is over. And because you were patient and kind and read my crazy thoughts about Denethor II, most disliked character in Tolkien (beyond Alfrid), I will “reward” you with two clips from said Appendices!
From “The Tale of Finduilas and Denethor,” in which Denethor has reluctantly traveled to Dol Amroth to ask for the hand of Princess Finduilas, whom he has never met:
As his companions and retinue stabled their horses and prepared to enter the castle and meet the royal family, Denethor found himself suddenly sick at heart and unable to bear the walls around him. He slipped away and wandered he knew not where along the cliffs of Dol Amroth, his thoughts in turmoil, and the sea-birds circled around him and looked at him curiously.
It was then he saw a figure clinging to the cliffs: a slight woman in green and brown, her dark hair bound loosely behind her, scrambling for a foothold. Without thinking, he swung down the dizzying cliffs to drag her back to safety.
Yet to his surprise, the maiden showed him no gratitude. "Villain!" she cried, stamping one booted foot, "You have startled the petrels, and caused me to lose my sketchbook as well!"
"A thousand apologies," he said, bowing low, "But you seemed to me in peril."
"All my work is lost," she stormed at him, unmollified, and he noticed her eyes were the dark gray of a tempest-torn sea.
"Forgive me," he said. "I am..." But he found the usual recitation of titles and rank held no allure for him in front of this slim brown maid, and he finished simply, "My name is Denethor."
It seemed to him she startled at his words, but then she smiled. "You may call me Faelivrin," she said.
From “The Lives of Denethor and Théoden,” in which 12-year-old Théoden is a page riding with his uncle’s warband, patrolling the borders of Rohan:
Then one day his band was patrolling near the border of Gondor, and they came across a war-band of men from Minas Tirith. Now, relations between the two nations at this time were cordial but not overly warm, and so the Rohirrim approached the Gondorians with respect but not with love. And because he had spent his early years in Gondor and his speech was the least accented, they sent Théoden to parley.
A man dismounted from a black stallion to meet with Théoden between their two bands, dressed in light armor, black with a white tree blazoned upon it. He was clear of eye and fair of face, a man full-grown unlike Théoden, but beardless, and slender rather than strong-thewed, and Théoden secretly felt he seemed not as manly as the Rohirrim. But he dismounted as well and hailed him, saying, "Well met, man of Gondor! I ask to speak to your leader."
"You speak with him now," the man said coldly.
But Théoden burst then into laughter. "Nay, you jest," he said, pointing to the black stallion. "For surely no lord of Minas Tirith would ride such a spavined nag as that!"
Then Denethor--for it was he indeed--was stung to the quick, for he was proud of the stallion he had chosen himself to be his mount. "How dare you speak so to the son of the Steward of Gondor!" he said in a rage.
*facepalms for both of them*
(no subject)
Date: 2015-01-21 10:20 pm (UTC)*rainbow and candy showers*
This was exactly what I'd hoped for and more! I am truly grateful for you reminding me of canon!denethor and now I see so many parallels to Magneto! I had forgotten how well Gandalf spoke of him.
I really wanted to save him--and by implication save Finduilas, Boromir, and Faramir--so I stepped into the past to do so.
And THANK YOU for doing so! I am very much looking forward to his part in the story now, especially when you show him around his fiancé!
I feel like a young Théoden would be a great deal like the rejuvenated king we see at the end of Return of the King, so he was easier to extrapolate backwards.
SO much YES! I agree completely.
Would he find himself without a home, without a future, with his love wedded to Aragorn or Théoden or some other lord?
Awww, you really make him sympathetic now.
THE APPENDICES! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! Denethor's and Finduilas' meeting was a surprise but I like the outline you painted here of her character. I can't wait to read more!
"All my work is lost," she stormed at him
Well I'd be furious, too!
And Théoden really needs to learn to not value horses over tact so much... I forgive because he's twelve....though he doesn't seem to have changed too much by Clarity of Purpose ;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2015-01-27 11:43 am (UTC)Ahhh, good! I can definitely see why you can't see Fassbender as anyone else (he's SO GOOD in that role!) but I'm glad you can see why he jumped to mind! And I'll be honest, I had forgotten that passage as well where Gandalf talks about how he's more like Faramir than Boromir!
And THANK YOU for doing so! I am very much looking forward to his part in the story now, especially when you show him around his fiancé!
As you can probably guess, I could not resist the temptation to write my old standby, "meeting your fiance unawares." :) All we know about Finduilas in canon is that she's beautiful and that she pines away because she misses the sea, so I had a lot of space to work!
Theoden is still working on his statecraft indeed. :) Classic good guy who thinks before he speaks problem!