Five Things Meme

[mithen]

I'd been kind of avoiding this meme because...well, once I get talking meta there's really, really no stopping me. I'm an academic, it goes with the territory. But I commented on anthraciteowl's wonderful analysis of why she loves Tim Drake and she gave me five things and...I could no longer resist.

If anyone hasn't done this meme, or would like to do it again, let me know and I'll give you five things I associate with you! Feel free to comment without asking for five things as well, I won't slap you with it unless you specifically ask for it, and I always love to talk meta. :)

Lots of burbling below the cut!



1. Bruce Wayne
I came to fandom for Superman and stayed for Batman. At first I paired Clark with Bruce in part as a default, as one of the few characters in the DCU strong-willed enough to keep Clark on his toes (clearly he likes his romantic partners strong-willed and unawed). But as I read more Batman comics and re-watched my beloved animated series, I grew more and more to appreciate Bruce very much on his own terms. For me, Batman is a symbol of hope in a very different way than Superman is. Superman is the dawning hope, the inspiring hope, the hope that brightens the soul. Batman, on the other hand, is the hope that keeps going even when there's no reason for it, the strength to get out of bed in the morning when there seems to be no point, the will to keep moving through the darkness when you're not certain there will ever be an end to it. He's a willed hope, a bone-deep faith that a mere human can make a difference, even when days and weeks and maybe even years go by without seeing that difference at all. In many ways, that's far more amazing to me than the sunlit hope Superman stands for. Hope when there's nothing to hope for, faith within the utter dark night of the soul.
 



2. Clark Kent
Now it's embarrassing for me to admit that for a long time I disliked Superman as well. :P In college and graduate school I was an X-Men reader. Superman was for children and for people with simplistic moral standards. In my mind, Superman was the high school quarterback, the popular kid, the golden boy who everyone looked up to, who never felt doubt or uncertainty.

That started to change when I started to get back into comics in 2002 or so. Kingdom Come--a future AU in which Clark gives in to despair and locks himself up in the Fortress, abandoning the world--rattled my assumptions. Birthright--a retelling of Superman's early years that recast him as a geek, a loner, a perpetually insecure boy who feels out of place not just in his hometown but in the world--shattered them altogether. The modern conception of Superman in which Clark is the real persona, not a fake identity Superman hides behind as in the Silver Age, rang very true with me. Under the bright spandex and heroic acts I saw a person who wasn't sure he had value, who wasn't certain he was qualified for all this power, and I fell in love with him.
 



3. Identity Porn
Which actually leads nicely to identity porn! I think it was thete1 who coined the term, and it means roughly something like "When characters play around with shifting identities." The "porn" is there because the results can be devastatingly sexy. :) When Superman is at a fundraiser and flirts with silly Brucie Wayne, and both of them know Superman is really the rather shy Clark and Brucie is really Batman, that's identity porn.

I love playing with identities because--to get horribly pedantic for a bit--it's a metaphor for the human psyche. That is, comic book superhero characters are generally not terribly complex or nuanced, but when they have so many different personae it functions at a certain level as a sort of concrete symbol of the complexity we all have. Kal-El is the alienated, lost part of us that feels inhuman sometimes, Superman the active public face we put on, Clark the insecure, warm-hearted man. Same with Batman--Batman is the will to power, to change the world; Brucie the face we put on to look inoffensive and unthreatening; Bruce the scarred and caring person who struggles to make connections. The rest of us don't dress up in armor or spandex (uh, mostly), but inside we have the same complexities. Sexy, sexy complexities.
 



4. Krypton
I love Krypton because there's no real canonical answer for what it was like there. :) There's a massive, contradictory wealth of information and the writer can pick and choose whatever they like, mixing and matching for whatever fits the story. Like a lot of things about the DCU (see #5) there are so many versions that readers are generally able to imagine Krypton as however you're describing it. Readers are unlikely to say "No, this isn't Krypton, they wear body suits on Krypton and never speak face to face"--maybe their personal image of Krypton is like that, but there are so many other versions that they all work. That last clause is a pretty good summary of why I love writing in the DCU.
 



5. AU stories
DC fandom is crazy. It's crazy because "canon" is just a tiny, tiny slice of the source material. For example, "in canon" Bruce Wayne is dead. And every week there are three or four comic books titles that come out (Batman Confidential, Gotham at Midnight, Cacophony, Batman/Superman, Trinity, and Superfriends just to name the ones I can think of off the top of my head) in which he's alive and kicking. And that's not even counting the Nolan movies, Batman: The Animated Series, The Batman, Batman: Brave and the Bold...well, you get the picture!

Even cooler, AUs are canon in DC, a phrase that would be an oxymoron anywhere else. But there are vampire AUs, Civil War AUs, pirate AUs...I read an AU recently (a canon one) where Lex Luthor was a record producer and all the heroes were musicians who worked for him. Crazy. There are few other fandoms as AU-friendly as comic books.

That said, I don't write many of what I consider "full" AUs! In my mind, there are three kinds of AUs (of course, the lines are blurry and there's lots of gray areas!):

A. Departures from specific canon stories, like rewriting "Divided We Fall" to have Clark and Bruce fall in love in the process, but keeping the basic shape of the story. These I write a fair amount of...uh, in part because it's kind of a "cheat," because one has a readymade plot to draw from.
B. "What if?" sorts of stories, where one bit of canon is changed and the author follows that diverging path into the future. These I write a fair amount of! What if Bruce were raised in Atlantis? What if Kryptonians invaded Earth? What if there was a wormhole between Krypton and Earth? I find fascinating following the world from that one pivotal change and seeing what that does to the rest of the world. Very often most of it stays the same, so I can focus the changes on a few characters. The more changes there are, the more nervous I tend to get, leading to...
C. Full-on AUs, where the characters are transposed into a wholly different world, usually with a major time shift. Bruce as a pirate in the 1500s, Clark as a samurai in ancient Japan, the JLA as nonpowered high school students are all the most dramatic kinds of AU. I actually am really uncomfortable writing these! I love reading them, but I tend to get overwhelmed when I consider doing them. They're very fun to think about, but I can get hopelessly lost in the details and end up trapped in the plot-equivalent of thick underbrush, unable to see the forest for the trees. There are so many DC characters to consider and try to fit in. Of anything I've written, "The House of the Earth" is probably the closest to this (it's more a type B, but the change is so major it basically changes the whole world). Gah, I've gotten so paralyzed at times, sitting there wondering, "What's Arthur doing in this world? Where's the Joker? Wildcat? Katana? Cass? Augh!" I really prefer stories where I can focus on two major characters and let the rest of the world slip by unaltered.

Despite this, I still am hoping to write the pro-wrestling AU someday... *nudges damos*...

Comments

[genclay.livejournal.com]

This was fun to read :)

Oh, identity porn, how I love thee.

[mithen.livejournal.com]

I may love identity porn more than is healthy. :D Is there such a thing?

[damos.livejournal.com]

Why are you nudging me if YOU want to write it...?

[mithen.livejournal.com]

*nudge nudge*

Because you promised me you'd write the framing device? At some point I might just finally start poking around and see how it goes...

[theclexfactor.livejournal.com]

I know this is supposed to be a "meme", but it was actually a wonderful "meta" on the complexities of my two favorite fictional characters and the world they live in. I'd never considered how intellectual "identity porn" was and what it said about humanity in general...makes me want to use that when I eventually start teaching, lol/serious.

As you can tell, I like writing AUs too, and I think this actually gave me the kick in the pants I needed to write.

[mithen.livejournal.com]

I'd never considered how intellectual "identity porn" was and what it said about humanity in general...makes me want to use that when I eventually start teaching, lol/serious.

*grin* I, uh, may have thought about theories of identity porn a little too much. :D My dissertation was in part on how people build identities online, so it's a theme.

As you can tell, I like writing AUs too, and I think this actually gave me the kick in the pants I needed to write.

Oh, great! "Black and Blue," or something new? (That rhymed, lol...) Either would fill me with glee...

[fictionalknight.livejournal.com]

I came to fandom for Superman and stayed for Batman.

LOL! Me tooooooooo! ;)

Now it's embarrassing for me to admit that for a long time I disliked Superman as well. :P In college and graduate school I was an X-Men reader. Superman was for children and for people with simplistic moral standards. In my mind, Superman was the high school quarterback, the popular kid, the golden boy who everyone looked up to, who never felt doubt or uncertainty.

*giggles* ...me too. Absolutely, 100%. I read X-Men and Spider-Man, and thought I would never read a Superman comic because he was too much....everything. Too strong, too fast, too damn perfect. And then they killed him. O_o That's I went back and watched the old movies again, started watching Lois & Clark and remembered why I used to love Superman in the first place. :happy sigh:

And ahhhh... AUs. I love when you write those. Please don't stop! :)

(I'll take subjects, if you feel like throwing some in my general direction. lol!)

[mithen.livejournal.com]

Superman doubters turned to lovers unite! :) I have the somewhat snotty belief that it takes a certain level of maturity to fully appreciate the complexities of Superman, lol...(spoken like someone who didn't come to like him until she was 35 or so...)

That said, he's sometimes not a very complex character in canon, so depending on which bits of canon one's run into, I can understand it.

Ooh, five more things for you! Let's see, I shall go with:
1. Lois and Clark
2. Dick/Barbara
3. Vampire Knight
4. Canada (yeah, that's a pretty vague one, but I can't help it!)
5. Computers (because of your job!)

I can't remember if you did some of these or something really close to them yet, so skip repeats. :) *bounces*

[fictionalknight.livejournal.com]

I have the somewhat snotty belief that it takes a certain level of maturity to fully appreciate the complexities of Superman, lol..

I have to agree. It's really easy to be awed by how super he is, and forget that he's more than just a guy who can punch through walls and make the earth spin around its axis backwards. ;)

I've been asked about Canada already (here) but not about the others, so I'll post about those sometime today. :) I'll *try* not to make it a novel length entry, but it might be hard, considering your picks for #1 and #5. lol!

[saavikam77.livejournal.com]

I came to fandom for Superman and stayed for Batman.

That's exactly what happened to me! :p I came in b/c of Superman Returns, and gradually started adding Bruce to my SR fics. Then, when I found S/B as a viable pairing, it was like I never looked back. Of course, that led to comics Batman, and I started watching The Batman, and so on and so forth. And I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis of what type of hope each of them represents.

Loved your analysis of AUs. I suppose Lost Years counts as a 'B' type... *ponders*

[mithen.livejournal.com]

It makes sense with two such strong personalities as Clark and Bruce, each of them with their own really interesting cast of characters and storylines and movies and everything...people are probably usually going to start shipping them primarily as a fan of one or the other first. :) Luckily they're both pretty easy to fall in love with. :)

Oh yeah, "Lost Years" is definitely a B-type AU, because both of them change a lot and (although we're not seeing it right now) I'm sure the rest of their worlds have changed while they were gone in ways that are different from canon!

[22by7.livejournal.com]

i used to hate Superman, too. then i read lots of Superman and realised that he's kind of the ultimate underrated overrated superhero. there's a lot you can do with him, as a character, you can take him to any level of metaphor, as long as you can acknowledge that Clark Kent isn't just a convenient lie.


identity porn - yes, this is one of the great attractions of the DCU (and costumed heroes in general). i absolutely love the feeling that the best DCU writing - canon and fanfic - can give me, sometimes, of there being two physical bodies in a conversation/a bed/a room, but more than two people. so that a single page of Bruce/Clark is actually Bruce[, Brucie, Batman, Matches]/Clark[, 'Smallville', Kal, Superman].


end up trapped in the plot-equivalent of thick underbrush, unable to see the forest for the trees.
i think this is *generally* the problem with most full-on AUs. definitely with canon Elseworlds like Red Son. in the end, it's a shiny, often hilarious thought experiment... but what was the point of it? of course, there's nothing wrong with shiny and hilarious. heh.

hahaha pro-wrestling AU... *write it*!

would love to do this meme.

[mithen.livejournal.com]

i used to hate Superman, too. then i read lots of Superman and realised that he's kind of the ultimate underrated overrated superhero.

That's a great way to put it! Yeah, he's overrated, but generally for fairly superficial reasons. There's more there that canon doesn't always explore very well and is just a treasure trove of complications.

i absolutely love the feeling that the best DCU writing - canon and fanfic - can give me, sometimes, of there being two physical bodies in a conversation/a bed/a room, but more than two people. so that a single page of Bruce/Clark is actually Bruce[, Brucie, Batman, Matches]/Clark[, 'Smallville', Kal, Superman].

Yesss, this. I have an essay half written in my head about how I can write so much of one pairing, arguing that I actually have something like thirty pairings, and then rattling through them: comics Superman/Batman, comics Clark/Brucie, movieverse Kal/Batman, movieverse Clark/Bruce, movieverse Superman/Brucie, toonverse Superman/Bruce...uh, and so on.

i think this is *generally* the problem with most full-on AUs. definitely with canon Elseworlds like Red Son. in the end, it's a shiny, often hilarious thought experiment... but what was the point of it? of course, there's nothing wrong with shiny and hilarious. heh.

It's hard to find a story in them sometimes. But yeah, like you say, sometimes the joy is just building the world and watching all the little pieces spin and dance. :)

Oh, what do I identify with you? These are probably kind of random:

1. Poetry
2. Graduate school
3. Batman
4. Superman (I'd love to see your meta about them!)
5. Art

[senmut]

Writing AUs that are full blown can be tiring, tedious, and grueling...but so much fun once the details click.

I actually find type B harder to write though. A Darker Path, for instance, about wore me out, thinking of the domino effect of the killing of the Outsiders in the middle of the Identity Crisis storyline.

[mithen.livejournal.com]

I actually find type B harder to write though. A Darker Path, for instance, about wore me out, thinking of the domino effect of the killing of the Outsiders in the middle of the Identity Crisis storyline.

I agree, that "domino effect" when you change something that has long-range effects can be really exhausting to follow out...especially in the DCU where the timelines are sometimes fuzzy at best! One feels rather like Hari Seldon in "Foundation," trying to see the new patterns...

[bradygirl_12]

I love your 'ramblings', Jen! :)

So many people have that impression of Superman as 'too much', but that's been the reason I've been attracted to him. All that power and how he uses it fascinates me.

I like your version of the different hope the boys offer.

And the AUs are a great discussion! AUs are endlessly fascinating! :)

Sure, hit me with questions! I'm in a chatty mood. :)

[mithen.livejournal.com]

So many people have that impression of Superman as 'too much', but that's been the reason I've been attracted to him. All that power and how he uses it fascinates me.

Superman is both a childish kind of wish-fulfillment ("I wish I had all that power so I could do what I wanted!") and a more adult wish-fulfillment ("I wish people with power used it wisely and kindly.") He's a total fantasy either way but I can definitely see the appeal...

Oh, five for you? You've done this a couple of times, so if I hit any repeats just skip them. :)

1. Alexander/Hephaeston
2. Ancient Egypt
3. Abraham Lincoln
4. Dinah/Selina
5. New England

[bradygirl_12]

I'll check to make sure, but they look new to me, or closely related to past memes.

But they look cool! :)

[starsandsea.livejournal.com]

I *heart* your description of Bruce. So. Much. *loves him*

I totally agree with you about Krypton! Hee! :D And your thoughts on AU's are very interesting! I know we've talked about them before, but to see if laid out with A's and B's and C's is very thought-provoking. *ponders a bit*

Ask me questions, if you want! I shall do my best to answer them... ;)

[mithen.livejournal.com]

I can wax pretty eloquent about Bruce. I try to restrain myself in fic from having Clark just go on and on about him (and vice versa), so a meme like this is far too tempting!

Let's see... five things!

1. Clark/Bruce
2. The JSA
3. Wales
4. Horse riding
5. Introversion :)

[anthraciteowl.livejournal.com]

See? Meta is a good thing! I really liked reading about Superman and Batman. I feel like I know them a little better now. I still really don't feel up to writing Clark, though.

Personally, I like AUs of types B and C. C can be tricky, both for the reason that you described and because a complete AU removes one easiest things about fanfiction: you don't get to skip the exposition any more. Still, I like using familiar characters to explore an unfamiliar universe.

Thanks for joining in!

[mithen.livejournal.com]

I feel like I know them a little better now. I still really don't feel up to writing Clark, though.

I'm still intimidated by Tim, so we're even. :)

C can be tricky, both for the reason that you described and because a complete AU removes one easiest things about fanfiction: you don't get to skip the exposition any more.

Oh, that's a very good point as well. That can be fun, but yeah, I've balked at certain AUs because just explaining what's going on would take thousands of words, lol. It's hard to keep them short and simple... but then, it's fun to let them grow, too...

[vespa331.livejournal.com]

For me, Batman is a symbol of hope in a very different way than Superman is.
That whole thing was beautiful. ::sniff::
::clings to Bruce:: Don't leave meeeee!

Bats make the best identity porn. Yes. I'm not a big Bruce/Tim fan, but the sheer volume of possible persona porn in that pairing is awe-inspiring.
S/B is of course very good for it too. :D But I feel like Clark has a slightly healthier balance between his identities than the Bats do.
I'm actually not sure what my point is here. I think my brain got distracted...
IDENTITY PORN GOOD.

It's crazy because "canon" is just a tiny, tiny slice of the source material.
It's true! And slightly brain-breaking. But also great, because even though I have my head in the sand about most of the current main storylines, there's still a ton out there that doesn't make me want to cry myself to sleep.

I love all those kinds of AUs. I have a great fondness for the full-on AUs because I love thinking about all the little details. I can't write them, but they do pass the time at work...

PRO-WRESTLING AU = YES. And Mina can help! Wheee! This http://www.amazon.com/Big-Time-Toys-Llc-Batman/dp/B0006J2Q9I could probably be turned into a wrestling mask...


let me know and I'll give you five things I associate with you!
Can I please play? :)

[mithen.livejournal.com]

It's true! And slightly brain-breaking. But also great, because even though I have my head in the sand about most of the current main storylines, there's still a ton out there that doesn't make me want to cry myself to sleep.

When I feel despairing, I take a moment to pity people who have only "the canon" to draw from in their fandom. :)

I know what you mean about just spinning out the AUs and playing and jiggering with them! The pro wrestling one just keeps expanding and expanding (Dick is a boy whose mother and father were wrestlers and were killed in a freak accident. He keeps hanging out at the ring and the other wrestlers want to discourage him, but he won't go away...)

Also, that swim set is awesome! :D

Let's see...five things:

1. Prague
2. Tim Drake
3. Having a fannish family :)
4. Batman: Brave and the Bold (I finally started watching it and OMG!)
5. GNC :P

[vespa331.livejournal.com]

He keeps hanging out at the ring and the other wrestlers want to discourage him, but he won't go away...
Hee, it sounds like Dick and wee!Dinah and Tim will all be hanging out there together.

Brave and the Bold is so good. It's the light in my darkness.

Why does GNC get a ":P"? :D

[mithen.livejournal.com]

Why does GNC get a ":P"? :D

Mostly because I remember your horror stories about the customers and the products! They crack me up...

[bradygirl_12]

Wee! I love this wrestling plot. ;)

[snake-easing.livejournal.com]

I read an AU recently (a canon one) where Lex Luthor was a record producer and all the heroes were musicians who worked for him.

... Was he an evil record producer? Did they have to band together to defeat him?

[mithen.livejournal.com]

He was indeed working for Darkseid Records! But in the end, he triumphs, because the musicians are too scattered and disorganized. (Clark, Barry, Hal and Arthur, I believe, are his first hit...they're like the Beatles. But then Clark dies...) Many years later he has some success with Bruce Wayne, who is a metal-Goth rocker kind of like Ozzie Osborne? And J'onn J'onnz is David Bowie--now that's just awesome.

I might have to post scans, lol...

[shardsofblu.livejournal.com]

Oh record producer Lex. I need someone to make a mix of his kind of songs now.

The modern conception of Superman in which Clark is the real persona, not a fake identity Superman hides behind as in the Silver Age, rang very true with me.

I was all starry eyed seeing him in STM as a kid, that's one thing I can never forget. But to make me actually care and be emotionally invested, this is probably the one thing I cannot appreciate enough about the change to the character.

...but when they have so many different personae it functions at a certain level as a sort of concrete symbol of the complexity we all have.

*nodnods!* You really just cannot compartmentalize one's life experiences, or take an aspect of a person and discount the other. They would eventually mesh up at some point even when one is actively functioning on a specific facet of their personality. Like with Batman -- even when he's all dark and commanding and ruthless as being Batman required him to be, people also simply cannot help seeing it's also a man named Bruce Wayne under that cowl, whom they've known as their friend and family. It's what allows others to be able to stand up to him and become his grounding force, which leads to other meta stuff about relationship dynamics.

It's crazy because "canon" is just a tiny, tiny slice of the source material. [..] AUs are canon in DC...

HA. I love that. :D

[mithen.livejournal.com]

I was all starry eyed seeing him in STM as a kid, that's one thing I can never forget. But to make me actually care and be emotionally invested, this is probably the one thing I cannot appreciate enough about the change to the character.

I've come to enjoy the movieverse vision of Superman (or Kal) as the "more real" persona...but in a way only because it's a change of pace from the more mainstream idea that Clark's the base personality. :) I wouldn't like it so much if it were the only option.

*nodnods!* You really just cannot compartmentalize one's life experiences, or take an aspect of a person and discount the other.

You put that really well, and that's why on the whole I don't even like discussions of whether the "real" person is Clark/Superman or Bruce/Batman. It's never so simple, we're all multitudes within ourselves.

[jlvsclrk.livejournal.com]

I love your "burbling" - as a fan of the DCU, the fact that it is so self contradictory is part of the attraction. It always makes me giggle as a Smallville fan when people complain about something because its not consistent with canon. Hello, canon isn't consistent with canon.

The modern conception of Superman in which Clark is the real persona, not a fake identity Superman hides behind as in the Silver Age, rang very true with me. Under the bright spandex and heroic acts I saw a person who wasn't sure he had value, who wasn't certain he was qualified for all this power, and I fell in love with him.

Absolutely! When I was quite young, I loved Superman but it was impossible for me to care for the seventies version. Ugh! I stopped reading for the longest time and was amazed at the change when I finally came back.

[mithen.livejournal.com]

It always makes me giggle as a Smallville fan when people complain about something because its not consistent with canon. Hello, canon isn't consistent with canon.

DC and Marvel are two of the hugest, most fluid canons out there. It's just insane how much one has to work with!

It's fascinating how much Clark's character has shifted over the years while still remaining recognizably the same person. There's a lot of latitude in the character...

[juniper617.livejournal.com]

Oh, how I love encountering other academics who are fellow comic book geeks! Just can't turn off that whole "analyze the crap out of everything" mentality, can we? I love that Batman and Superman, in particular, stand up really well under this kind of treatment.

Thanks for today's biggest smile! ^_^

[mithen.livejournal.com]

Oh, how I love encountering other academics who are fellow comic book geeks! Just can't turn off that whole "analyze the crap out of everything" mentality, can we?

I can usually keep from posting reams of it and driving everyone up the wall, but I can't turn off the impulse at all, lol.

Superman and Batman are ver amenable to being intellectually dissected! :)

[rai-daydreamer.livejournal.com]

Your take on Bruce and Clark... it's perfect for me. I especially love Bruce's one. Yes. He's a hope. *sighs contently* Thank you, thank you.

I love your AU stories as much as not-AU(um, usual stories?? I'm not sure) stories! I'm always amazed and awed how you make the world and get characters into the role.

...I'm not sure I can write my thoughts understandably. But... can I play?

[mithen.livejournal.com]

Your take on Bruce and Clark... it's perfect for me. I especially love Bruce's one. Yes. He's a hope. *sighs contently* Thank you, thank you.

Thank you too, because talking with you has always helped me see that!

Oh my, there are too many things for me to choose from! Um, the first five!

1. Clark/Bruce
2. Kyoto
3. Krypto
4. Lighting effects in art (because you use them so well and they're something it's hard for me to see until I have the art side by side!)
5. Alfred :)

Also, the calendar came last night, yay! *dances* It's beautiful...I love the way you added the character designs of "Dreams of Sunlight" as well, ooooh. It will be an happy S/B year for me!